The 1794 subject of this thread is, IMHO, a great coin. Granted, it looks better to me at arm's length, but the detail is super. It's eye-appeal is admittedly better than the great majority of my counterstamped coppers! I'll second the compliment on the pics. A fine photo and an even finer copper, Steve.
On a side note, when I first saw Bob's copper listings on ebay, my initial impression paralleled that of Dennis. It seemed odd to me that a seller would post such distant pictures of coins that literally beg for close scrutiny. Yet, using the ctrl+(+) keys, I was able to adequately zoom-in on Bob's distant-yet-clear pics. Bob's 100% rating and liberal return policy speaks well of his prowess as a seller. Also, if he is able to not simply sell but "market" coins for a profit, I say .... Job well done!
Bob, when will you start selling counterstamped coppers?
I admit that when I initially got into EBay selling 5 years ago, some of my pictures may have been too small. Over the years, I have tried to make sure that does not happen.
Originally Posted by Chautauquan
Always on the look out for interesting counterstamps, especially on the 1814 and earlier cents!
Last edited by cudabob496; 10-01-2012 at 08:02 PM.
cudabob - I don't have any bad days, and I have no issues with your eBay selling success. I also have 100% feedback on eBay since joining in 1999, and I have never had a purchase from me returned. But as we both know, eBay certainly remains the caveat emptor wild west of selling and purchasing coins. Most new coin collectors are not educated enough to recognize even gross counterfeits, let alone porosity or corrosion from an "arms length" photograph.
Your comments above on 9/21 are consistent with the conversations that you and I have shared on eBay. My point is that everything that I have seen and experienced in EAC since joining this organization has shown me that nearly every single EAC dealer and collector belonging to EAC communicates full disclosure plus they exhibit very large accurate coin photographs on their coins. EAC collectors do not look at their coins at "arms length", but inspect them under 5x to 10x loupes, and EAC net-grade them harshly for even minor defects. EAC collectors are passionate about their coppers, and most even disclose a "suspected" re-coloring or cleaning.
There is no question that small arm's length photographs and descriptions like "choice", "nice", or "fine detail" will successfully sell coins at higher prices on eBay to the general eBay customer than a photo of the same coin photographed at 5 times size without even a description. With a large detailed photograph, the uneducated eBay buyer obtains and coin way better than expected - and the sophisticated EAC buyer avoids a coin with porosity and burnishing. It sounds like a winning combination to me.
If you want to sell your coins for the absolute highest price on eBay to non-EAC members, don't change a thing. If you actually have an interest in this hobby and what Early American Coppers stands for and would like to sell to other EAC members, you might consider enlarging your photos to the size of the other prominent EAC large cent collectors and sellers - and then a description or simulated grade isn't even necessary.
Gee whiz, as I own and continue to purchase a good many porous and burnished large cents, with and without counterstamps, it appears from the above snippet that I may lack sufficient sophistication. I do have some choice coppers with no problems, too. Maybe, I'm not the sort of collector that EAC would have in its ranks? Dennis, what with my being a coin collector for 50+ years, yet a relative newcomer to the EAC, how am I to process your scenario of how and what an EAC member should collect/sell? Would you say that most EAC members think as you do, Dennis?
Originally Posted by DennisCD
In posing this question, Dennis, I'm not intending to sound sarcastic. I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts here, as I had some personal considerations to address before joining the EAC. While I have the necessary appreciation for old coppers, particularly the counterstamped ones, I don't avidly collect by the numbers, be they Sheldon, Cohen, Newcomb, Maris, etc. I have discovered a few NC's along the way, but that's a small part of the copper appeal for me; this, as is any coin's condition. Your commentary strikes at whether a seller like Bob or a collector like me is EAC material. It's a question that I've asked myself. Had it not been for the encouragement of a few EAC friends and one dealer in particular, I'd not now be a member. Your commentary to and about Bob is causing me to reconsider my membership ....
Dennis, I think your assessment of this topic has some flaws. In reading your previous comment, you literally are saying things like: My Ebay listings are not full disclosure, we can't be passionate about coins unless we are an EAC member, general buyers of coins on Ebay are uneducated (while EAC buyers are sophisticated), that one does not have a true interest in this hobby if they do not follow EAC guidelnes, and that I should not sell to other EAC members unless I follow exactly EAC selling guidelines. Though EAC is a good organization, the coin collecting hobby is much bigger than EAC, and any of your heart-felt opinions. I've always said to myself, that the minute EAC begins to infringe on my personal freedoms, I will quickly cease being a member. I will sell and market my coins as I see fit! If I'm honest and trustworthy, I may survive. If I'm dishonest and/or deceitful, then the market will respond accordingly, and I'll soon be out of business! If all of EAC held to your views, then I think EAC might one day become extinct (assuming we are still living in a free society)!
Originally Posted by DennisCD
Last edited by cudabob496; 10-02-2012 at 08:30 PM.
Chautauquan - I am also a relatively new member to EAC although I also started collecting large cents in the late 1950's. I also have no idea what "EAC-material" is or means, plus I do have a bit of a hard time accepting some of the EAC net-grading for minor flaws - but who cares, as I purchase the coin, not the grade.
My comments have only to do with what I have experienced and continue to experience with EAC collector-dealers. This organization seems to go to the highest levels of "disclosure" on copper photographs, grading, and the pre-notification of flaws - and I have learned from this organization and their dealers greatly since I joined EAC because of this "defect disclosure". It certainly seems to me that all of the EAC members I have encountered are "over the top" in attempting to train new and old collectors on all aspects of how to evaluate and appreciate all coppers - regardless of whether they are MS or not gradable.
I also have plenty of large cents that have porosity, rim dings, cleaning, and other "issues" that are clearly exposed in a nice clear well-magnified photograph. My worst purchases (my fault) were trying to score a winner on a poor photograph. My most satisfying purchases were from the auction houses and EAC dealers who knew what the "issues" were with their coppers and educated me with great photographs and descriptions. If I don't like the problems or not gradable issues, I don't purchase the coin - but like steven's extremely sharp S-71, sometimes a copper is just far too appealing not to purchase it in spite of it's issues.
If a sales person knows of defects in a house, automobile, or large cent and does not attempt to disclose or visibly show these defects, I can't do anything about it other than return the product and not purchase from that dealer again. But I have been a very strong repeat purchaser of large cents from the many popular EAC dealers who have promoted their large cents that show you a photograph of exactly what you will see under a 5x or 10x loupe. These dealers to me exemplify what is best about the Early American Coppers organization.
I did notice that cudabob's new eBay listing photographs are far clearer and larger upon magnification than his previous listings. I wholeheartedly commend cudabob for that.
The collecting of copper coins is the unifying thread that holds EAC together. As a long time member I have witnessed this same thread/theme repeated countless times. (Oddly, this one started out innocently enough) It is rooted in money for product and nothing more. And yet, each and every person can/should make purchase decisions based upon an understanding of the subject matter. Collectors can find a haven of discussion and education within EAC to best arm themselves to make the wisest choices in the hunt for a sometimes elusive pray.
Originally Posted by Chautauquan
This thread is proof of that.
We all have differing goals and interests in what we percieve our individual collections shoulds be. It could be grade or condition, compleatness or any manner of "special interest".
Worthy of special respect, in my estimation, are those who add to the hobby of these old relics. Those who add discovery to the equasion. Those who add brilliance to the fire.
Chautauquan, I wish more of this club had as many logs to add to the fire as I have already seen from you.
Last edited by copperhobbie; 10-03-2012 at 12:46 AM.
Not sure what you mean by "rooted in money for product, and nothing more". In my case, I love old coins, and they have been part of my life since childhood. In a tough world, going to the coin shop and leaning over the glass counter top, looking at all the old coins, finding a treasure, was a joy. Again, not sure what you mean, but I suspect that, of most of the dealers at the big shows, few are there for profit only. They love the interaction with other collectors, stories, new discoveries, rare finds, etc, and have thier own personal collections. And they also sell coins, in order to make a living and pay the bills. This whole concept of EAC rules and requirements to regulate the copper coin hobby/business, and the accusations that follow if someone does not follow those rules, gives me a bad taste in my mouth. EAC may be a good organization, and provide some benefit to the hobby, but hopefully its not just a small group of elitists who feel their way is the only way. EAC may be a good organization, but if it were to dissapear tomorrow, the coin collecting hobby would continue to be fine. Especially when the main goal of collecting coins, for most people, is to have FUN! And we need dealers, who sell coins, so we can plug those holes, and complete those collections!
Originally Posted by copperhobbie
Last edited by cudabob496; 10-03-2012 at 02:35 AM.
Can't help you with this.
Last edited by copperhobbie; 10-03-2012 at 04:00 AM.
No problem, we've proabably beat this horse to death anyway!
Originally Posted by copperhobbie