Not quite. I don't like a lot of the CRAP coming across in this forum, and that's what it is. First of all, don't give me any of this "EAC rules and requirements" stuff. EAC has absolutely no rules and regulations pertaining to eBay or other venue for buying and selling coins. I have met and interacted with dozens of EAC members, many of whom I might refer to as "friends" because of our interactions through coins. EAC is anything but an "elitist" organization, unless by "elitist" you mean that we treat each other with respect and courtesy, regardless of whether there is money involved or none. EAC does not tell anyone what they can or should collect, nor require anyone to justify his own buying or selling actions.
However, when EAC people get together, one major thing that happens is that they learn from one another. Many people on ebay have no idea that many of the nicer coins even exist. That's not elitist; it's simply a fact that they have never been exposed to coppers beyond what is offered on ebay for $.99. The more you learn, the more you see, and are offered better material, coins without holes, gouges, not scrubbed with abrasives, etc. It is not elitist to want better coins--I don't know anyone who deliberately looks for coins which are bent, have holes, etc. for a normal collection. They want the best they can afford for their collections. Obviously, I'm not going to own an XF 1803 cent if my price limit is $50 or $100. But that doesn't mean I have to settle for a very porous or corroded coin, maybe a nice, clean VG. Over the years, I have moved from being a $100 collector to being a $1000 collector, but have interacted and shared with the $100,000 collectors from the start.
The point is, Bob, that to hide porosity or corrosion with a low resolution photograph when one could easily do better, is not the way I want to be treated by a friend or fellow collector. Now maybe that pushes the bids higher, maybe it isn't bad enough that the buyer round trips the coin, but I thought the object of a hobby was fun and enjoyment, not to agonize about how bad your latest buy is. I don't think my attitude is elitist, it is certainly not EAC official policy. But when I see someone promoting himself as an "EAC Dealer", my first reaction is "good guy", "no problem"--maybe I need to adjust that feeling. Maybe he should say "EAC people not wanted, stay away". That works, too.
Oh, sorry, but we're not going away, right Randy?
Randy ....... Thanks for the positive, encouraging feedback. It's great to hear that my contributions to Copper Notes are appreciated. I've had similar encouragement from another member.
Dennis ....... By "EAC material" I was referring to your use of "sophisticated EAC buyer." While I'm no newcomer when it comes to coins, I don't view the old coppers with the "sophisticated" eye of the EAC'ers you mention. I personally don't feel the need to do so. Perhaps, that feeling will change in the future, but I doubt it. Bob's pics on ebay have NEVER been a problem for me. Indeed, I find his marketing approach to be intriguing, and he's been 100% successful. I have yet to purchase one of his coppers, but I regularly look at his listings in hopes of finding one that appeals to me. My decision to buy a coin, or not, is generally based upon what I know; this, as opposed to what a dealer/seller knows or doesn't know. If, as an EAC member/buyer/seller/dealer I am expected to understand and explain all the nuances of any given coin that's passing through my hands, I'll fail. Ah, if I could only be "one with the coin." :rolleyes:
My entire life I have been a collector and was hardcore into baseball cards for 15 years. I quit the hobby because it became over run by dealers only concerned with making quick money via any means necessary even if it meant ripping people off or lying to them.
I didn't move to coins as my next hobby because I dealt with many coin dealers during my baseball card days (who sold both) and overall I didn't like these dealers.
Four years ago when I searched for a new hobby - the rareness and numbering system of early large cents attracted me. I was very skeptical of EAC because I worried that my budget of $100 and under coins would cause me to be treated the way only buying $50 and under baseball cards used to cause me to be treated by most dealers (which was like store owners do to 8 year olds). I gave it shot figuring I'd just get information on learning the Shelton numbers and at worst it would be a waste of $25.
I am glad I did. To me, the majority of EAC members are nothing like typical coin dealers. Most are friendly and helpful even if you have no intention of buying anything from them. I was shocked the first time I ordered a coin from a EAC member and they sent it to me without me sending them a cent (and not knowing me) saying send me the money if you like it or just return the coin.
Saying EAC "rules and regulations" is incorrect.. I feel it is EAC INTEGRITY. The majority of our society only look at for themselves with no care if others get robbed or ripped off. When I meet a EAC person who I don't know - I feel there is a 95% chance that this is going to be a really good person (where in normal life I expect about 10% of people to be a good person).
So if saying that EAC which has an overall higher view of ethics and integrity than most of the general population as being "elitist" - then I wish to be an elitist
I don't think its CRAP. Maybe I was judging EAC based on Dennis's comments of 10/1/2012, at 11:17, to which I responded on 10/2/12 at 12:11. Where he implied I was being dishonest/deceptive, and that non EAC types were not given to full disclosure, not passionate, uneducated, not sophisticated, and have no true interest in the hobby! Can you see how the term "eletism" came to mind? Dennis also seems to have a problem with my discussion of the term "scudzy", but I will avoid discussing that. And, you do have EAC guidelines (if not rules/reguations) for pictures, of which Dennis occasionally reminds me I should follow in my Ebay listings. And I'm sure there are other "expectations" for how EAC members should conduct business, if we do not want to call them rules or guidlines.
Originally Posted by coppereate
This all started when I innocently metioned my views on coin photographs, and then had to respond to Dennis' provocation regarding my integrity.
One other thing, if I may. I'm confident that even with the EAC guidelines for photos, most all EAC members have returned coins purchased from other EAC members, for many reasons, such as color of coin, or a certain flaw that did not appear in the photo, or something the seller failed to mention. I know I have. And I did not accuse the seller of being dishonest or deceptive. The fact that I, and all other EAC sellers, have a liberal return policy, is what is important!! That way we don't have to say to someone "you were being deceitful" because you didn't mention that scratch, or that area of corrosion. I recall Dennis (I think it was him) returning a coin I sold him about 4 years ago. He said my picture was not clear enough regarding a small flow. But he also said my description mentioned the flaw. I gladly and promptly gave him a full refund. Maybe thats what he's still upset about?
Will someone please reply with the Official EAC Guidelines for Pictures, which I maintain do not exist, have never existed, and likely will never exist? When I read that someone has the capability of posting good pictures on ebay, yet uses a lower resolution because he has determined that he gets higher prices, that tells me:
a. Something is wrong with most of his coins.
b. He doesn't want potential buyers to see the defects.
c. He is relying on the cost and inconvenience of returning a coin to sell the coin, rather than its positive aspects.
If that is EAC, you can shove it.
Yes Dan, people do have the capability to post pictures with lower resolution. This is America! Why don't you be the official picture policeman for the organization.
Originally Posted by coppereate
Oh, I also got an email from an EAC member saying my coins should not be pictured with what appears to be underwear. Yes, I admit it, it is used underwear from the thrift store! But I ran it through the washing machine twice. Sorry I violated the "expectation" that coins in photos not appear with underwear! And, I believe I did once have a photo, that had a particle of Cheese-it next to the coin! For that, I humbly apologize! I was hungry!
Bob, I don't ever recall purchasing a coin from you - but I did communicate with you a year or so ago shortly after you purchased and very quickly re-listed two of my duplicate large cents on eBay plus one that you purchased at the same time from "SY", a EAC collector and full-time dealer.
My two large cents and "SY's" large cent were sold to you with large, sharp photos and accurate descriptions of their porosity, light corrosion, and cleaning "issues". Your new eBay listings displayed these same three large cents with tiny photos that could not possibly show the problem issues, plus your descriptions were "original", "choice", and "sharp".
I politely eBay communicated to you that you were free to use my own photos if you liked for your re-listing, or to at least enlarge your photos and/or describe these large cents a little more accurately. Your comments back to me told me that I can sell my coins my way and that you will sell your coins your way.
That was the end of it until I saw several of your posting on copper notes. Yes, I have repeatedly suggested to you that my personal opinion is that you should post larger photos of your large cents and/or have more disclosure on your listings because your new EAC dealer-peers in the EAC are selling their large cents with far larger photographs and a full disclosure of defects if they know about them.
I personally have zero worries and 100% confidence regarding any large cent that I purchase from ANY EAC dealer, including Butternut - where Col. Steven hardly ever has photographs, but has super accurate descriptions only. By joining EAC, I thought that I could influence you into moving toward the integrity level that I personally perceive of these EAC dealers. That's it.
Maybe someday, Dennis, I'll reach your level of integrity! The level of integrity to be in EAC! And your above story, how you politely communicated to me, but I just said "you do it your way, and I'll do it mine", I can't imagine responding to someone (who was polite) in that manner. If I was rude, I apologize! And darn, I guess I messed up again, by misusing the terms "original", "choice", and "sharp"! Besides photo police, I guess we need grammer police too!! I vote for you, Dennis! And I guess I'll cease mentioning coins I have listed for sale on Ebay,since I still don't meet your (or is it EAC) criteria for photo size and accuracy of description. But, then again, I am continually told there are no EAC criteria for selling/posting coins to EAC members. Maybe they are all in your head Dennis. Guess I need to learn to read minds!
Originally Posted by DennisCD
I'm also glad, Dennis, that all those with whom you associate with in EAC, agree with the proper photo size, lighting, and resolution to use, and agree with the proper description to write, and agree with the correct usage of terms used to describe a coin. Must be great never having to return a coin you purchase within EAC, since it will be exactly what you expected it to be.
Bob - are you a member of EAC now?
Everyone knock it off! If a coin photo on ebay is too small, just pass it by. Bob, i really enjoy the info you put on this forum. It is educational and entertaining, keep it up. When i look at coins on ebay and see photos that are too small, including yours, i pass them by. I'm not saying this is good and i'm not saying it's bad. But we're all good here, so let's please end this discussion. Saludos to all.