View Full Version : 1818 modern chinese fake ngc slabbed as genuine
08-26-2013, 05:22 PM
This one deserves to be ensconced herein.
08-26-2013, 10:33 PM
If the encasement is genuine then public humiliation of NGC is in order. It should be front page news. They should know about the chinese counterfiets at this late date. A head or two should roll...then they should go out of bussiness!
Is that thier phone number on the back??
08-27-2013, 08:06 AM
I looked up cert number and the coin there does not appear to be the same one to me - on NGC the coin has inner circle
08-27-2013, 10:30 AM
I have requested permission from NGC to post their picture here.
08-27-2013, 10:30 AM
Here's a link to a website that markets counterfeit large cents among other coins. Note that its construction is quite similar to the ebay domain:
This same seller markets counterfeits that are housed in what appear to be PCGS holders. Check out his "PCGS" MS-64 1909-S VDB's at $150 a pop:
08-27-2013, 12:45 PM
NGC permission to post their picture:
Thanks for the email. Yes, you may repost this picture. I am familiar with
the eBay listing and I believe that it is an altered NGC holder. Our
website pictures indicate that when this holder was shipped from our
offices it had a different (genuine) coin.
08-27-2013, 12:46 PM
This is a screen shot from NGC
08-27-2013, 01:39 PM
SO, in other words this is a fake plastic slab and a fake coin?
08-27-2013, 05:53 PM
Got a nice e-mail from Max. NGC contends that the slab has been altered. Probably a fake coin was placed in one of thier encasements after leaving thier office. The serial number in thier pics match but the cent does not.
08-27-2013, 09:46 PM
I didn't think you could open their slabs without them being detected at a glance. Must be a trick to cracking them that I sure don't know of. Also I thought NGC basically states that their slabs are tamper proof.....Would be nice if we could continue to follow this story and/or issue.
08-27-2013, 10:29 PM
Here's the e-mail from Max with the link to the authentic NGC coin;
Thanks for the email. I believe that this is an altered NGC holder. If you take a look at the NGC Cert Verification image on our website, you'll see that when the holder left our offices it contained a different (genuine) coin. Sometime after it was shipped from NGC the coin was switched with a counterfeit coin. Here's a link to the NGC Cert Verification images for this coin: http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3309895-001
Please let me know if any questions.
08-28-2013, 09:47 AM
I didn't think you could open their slabs without them being detected at a glance.
Some years ago now, the ability to open and reseal PCGS slabs beyond detection was a hot topic at our local coin club; this, following a presentation by our President. He contended that this could be done, and one of our dealer-members hotly disputed that claim. At the following month's meeting, our President, also my former pastor, put the matter to rest. He displayed a PCGS Morgan dollar slab that housed a Roosevelt dime. Now, if a local pastor can do such an undetectable job of switching a coin in a slab, ....
08-28-2013, 01:43 PM
Don't get me wrong here Chautauquan, but can you please explain. Are you saying he was able to successfully open a slab and switch coins and then reseal the slab? Did he show you before and after? Did he show you how it could be done? I'm like the other guy in your coin club, I don't think it can be done without noticeable damage to the plastic. I could be wrong that's for sure but I've never seen any example of this and I've had plenty of opportunity to have seen an example.
08-28-2013, 03:59 PM
Yes, EO, that's exactly what my pastor buddy did, back in 1998 or so. He popped out a Morgan, substituted a Roosevelt dime and resealed it. He did this in his basement. At the following month's meeting, we had about seventy members who got to examine the resealed slab, and not one of us could see any indication of his handiwork, so to speak. The dealer who said that this couldn't be done was dumbfounded and even perturbed, I'd say. Knowing my pastor, I wasn't surprised though. Talk about rattlers ... :eek:
Some discussion of this happening would often resurface whenever the topic of "buy the coin, not the slab" was raised at subsequent meetings.
08-28-2013, 04:24 PM
. Chautauquan, thanks for the reply...I'll be danged!!!....He must have had some otherworldly help...It would be nice if we could get a PCGS, ANACS, or NGC representative to confirm if this can be done without leaving tell-tale signs. ( I can't remember where but I'm sure I've read both NGC and PCGS statement of there slabs being absolutely tamper proof without telltale signs of it being quite obvious of tampering) If this is indeed possible I would think the TPG's would correct the problem very promptly as of the millions if not billions of $$$ at stake. ....I have yet to find an easy way to crack a slab much less put one back together..
Region 8 Admin
08-28-2013, 07:52 PM
Hi guys. This is a hot topic on this week's submissions to the Region 8 newsletter. David Lange and John Wright have weighed in along with a few others. EO coins, David would be an excellent source for NGC policy and you might consider posting a question to that effect.
08-28-2013, 08:29 PM
David Lange and John Wright have weighed in along with a few others.
This would be a great place to "weigh in", by my estimation.
I'm sure that 2 pieces of sonically welded plastic could be separated without much problem (if careful and patient), resealing would be easier than opening...
Region 8 Admin
08-28-2013, 08:35 PM
Copperhobbie, I'll be sure to mention that this Sunday! You're absolutely right!
08-28-2013, 11:21 PM
I may just be learning something here that is a surprise to me. By the sounds of it, after some of the posts I'm reading, it is possible... Region 8 Admin.- I'll just hope that Lange will possibly address the issue...I guess personally I just have a hard time believing something I haven't seen, that's the reason for my "20 questions". This is of interest to me so I'm going to sit back and listen to the experts. I'll be especially interested in what John has to say...Thanks guys, Erik
09-05-2013, 12:17 AM
Well, I decided not to sit back in hopes that we could discuss this a bit more. I read Lange's response and was left wondering if I should laugh or cry. His response was lacking. I'm really still on the fence with the switcheroo, if it is possible, which I truly doubt, to open and reseal an NGC slab, then the game has really changed. I would possibly believe that a certain slab that had been sealed improperly could possibly be opened and shut again ..., BUT really.... I guess until a representative of a TPG comes out and says that this is possible and they are addressing this issue I don't buy the whole deal. (They probably wouldn't as millions and millions are at stake)... I don't know what happened with the coin we're discussing but until I hear something more than a few sentences from Lange, I'm on the fence and I would guess that there is a very, very, very slim possibility of this switcheroo.....I could go on and on in regards, but, hopefully another member has a better grasp and I would really like to hear that someone has actually witnessed this switcheroo live.....OK, ...Cheers all!
09-05-2013, 12:51 AM
I would really like to hear that someone has actually witnessed this switcheroo live....
If you like, I can put you in touch with my former pastor and lifelong friend. He's now retired and living in Tuscon. He retired in 2009 from a church that is located not all that far from Buffalo, MN. I've not spoken with him for a few months. It's possible that he might return to MN on occasion. Assuming that he may still possess that anomaly, I'd try to get him to post pics. But, pics can be doctored, and that doesn't offer much credibility, does it?
I've been collecting and writing articles about coins, tokens and the like for decades. There were also many, experienced collectors at the club meeting when the pastor displayed his "handiwork." His feat surely made the point ... Buy the coin, not the slab! I could send a petition to the club and probably get twenty or more signatures of longtime members who witnessed the result of the substitution; and, get the document notarized. Would that work?
Hmmm, I wonder if I can slip a washer into a slab? Perhaps, we should hold a "cointest" and bring our efforts to the next EAC conventionfor judging? :rolleyes: The mind reels!
09-05-2013, 02:04 AM
I don't need any signatures, and I don't need a notarization, but YES I'd definitely like to speak with him. Also you can count me in for the "cointest" and my bet is that I can determine an altered slab. How about that. You can PM me anytime and I can go from there. Thanks!
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